SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi! New member and first time poster here! I've recently realized that other than my IC, I have no one in my life that I can trust enough to talk to about what I'm going through. My WH listens and tries, but it's not the same as having a friend or family member to lean on and get opinions from. So I'm trying something new with this group.

Dday was March 1st of this year. I found out that my WH has been cheating on me in some form or other for around 8 years (over half of our marriage) with potential for inappropriate behaviors as early as when we first started dating. He's had 3 PAs, 1 EA and 2 online affairs. As soon as I confronted him with what I'd found, he deleted everything. I had already gone through emails and FB messenger (but only back a short while and with only 2 people), but had never gained access to his phone, pictures, or messages and things going back longer than a year or so. Originally neither of us wanted to R, but he changed his mind and has been doing everything he can to be a better husband and father and to heal our relationship. And I will give him credit, he's putting in a lot of work and truly trying. BUT he's always had a horrible memory (severe ADHD doesn't help). I'm a facts kind of person. I need to know what happened to deal with this, and since he deleted everything and forgets so many things, I have very little to go on. It makes it hard to trust him again when I don't know what he actually forgets, and what he's just telling me he forgets so he doesn't have to give me information. I also can't seem to even start making peace with what happened. I just can't accept it. My IC says I need radical acceptance. That I don't need to agree with what happened or even pretend that it was ok, but just accept that it happened so I can work on healing and working on our relationship. But I seem to be stuck. Anytime I think about what he's done, I just feel hopeless, lost and repulsed. Back to square 1.

Our MC seems to only focus on moving forward - things we need to focus on to be good partners, etc. But I'm just not there yet. I can't focus on those things when I feel like I'm still drowning with the facts (what little I have) of what he's done. The betrayal is just so painful. I've read a few books on healing from As, and I feel like they either focus on getting to a point where you can function or once you've made peace, having a better marriage. I need more in the middle, on HOW to accept and make peace with what has happened. My WH is hurt that I haven't forgiven him yet. But I can't even think that way when I don't even know what all I'm having to forgive.

So, how have you all been able to "accept" or "make peace" with your WS's As? What can I do to help myself move forward? I do want to R, but I know that if I can't stop drowning in what happened, that won't work. Also, how do you rebuild trust after so much betrayal and so little information? Thanks!

Oh yeah, I’m gonna be a shit example of this. Twenty five years married, 13 years out from dday. They were basically one night rando hookups from Craigslist, one girl was 20 and he met with her a few times.

I have white knuckled reconciliation. He wants it, and he also has severe adhd. Impulse control is an issue.

Now moving likely toward divorce, so many years after I discovered his affairs.

I’m going to ask a different question. Because my reconciliation is full of regrets that I didn’t leave earlier.

Why do you need to cramp around your partner’s shit life skills?

You don’t. You shouldn’t be doing the majority of the work. You don’t need to be with someone who can’t adult like an adult.

[This message edited by 3yrsout at 7:52 PM, Tuesday, August 12th]

Read "Cheating in a Nutshell".

My IC says I need radical acceptance. That I don't need to agree with what happened or even pretend that it was ok, but just accept that it happened so I can work on healing and working on our relationship. But I seem to be stuck. Anytime I think about what he's done, I just feel hopeless, lost and repulsed. Back to square 1.

Are you sure that your IC also intends the latter part of this?

...so I can work on healing and working on our relationship

Acceptance can involve you accepting that it happened, that the situation is what it currently is without any hopes of what it could have been or it might be in the future, and moving on based on that scenario. That sounds more like acceptance as I know it. Your WH cheated. He did the acts for which you have evidence. He won't admit more. Maybe he remembers more. Maybe he forgets. What are the implications in the future for accepting all of that as fact? What if he does remember and is lying? What if he can't remember anything? Why or why not? Accept that it may never improve and there's current evidence that it won't. Can he remember dating you? What if he can't remember anything he does in the future? What does that mean for you and the family?

You have said that you cannot forgive what you do not know. You have to accept that you do not know. That is the default. Don't expect that to change. Now what?

Making peace (IMO) is for you. Not the cheater.

You accept it happened. You process it. You understand it had NOTHING to do with you — it’s the cheaters poor coping mechanisms and/or lack of skills or whatever it is.

It does not mean you forgive.

It certainly doesn’t mean you not address it.

It is meant to help you start to heal - no matter what the cheater says it goes after the affair is discovered.

I hope this helps you.

There are no magical answers or definitive timeline. It progresses that your pace and that's the end of the discussion regarding how fast reconciliation should happen

I think everyone wonders if they really know everything about their WS's affair(s). I still think I don't know everything and I'm going on 16 months

Typically it's the MC's that push for you to just accept that it happened and then move towards building a brand new sparkly awesome solid relationship. They want the win of saving in marriage. Your IC should be focusing on what you need what you want and in my opinion should not be talking about how to salvage your marriage

The mistake I made was demanding MC on day one because I didn't know any better. In hindsight I would have gone to IC for several months and then figured out what I wanted to do with the relationship

Stay strong, we are here for you

Welcome to SI and I'm so sorry that you're dealing with infidelity. There is a post pinned to the top of the forum that you may find helful, titled Beyond Regret and Remorse. In the JFO (Just Found Out) forum, there are some really good posts that we encourage new members to read. There are some others in the JFO forum that aren't pinned that are also really good, and you can find them by looking for the bull's eye icon. The Healing Library is at the top of the site.

There's an industry provider who indicates that it takes 2-5 years to heal from infidelity, and it can take longer if you R. You are fairly new in your journey, and any additional dday or major revelation will set your healing clock back to zero. Frankly, I was still a mess at 6 months and nowhere near healed enough for MC. Your marriage didn't cheat - he did.

Your WH (wayward husband) should read How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda MacDonald. It's fairly short, so it doesn't take long to read. But he will make it through if he's interested enough. One important thing to remember is that it's going to take a lot of hard work to R, and you can't drag anybody through it. Another tough situation is that he's a serial cheater, and they are notorious for not digging in and really doing the work to change to be a safe partner.

Do you feel like you have a good fit with your IC? If you can, you may wish to look for a betrayal trauma specialist and bonus if they deal with infidelity. One thing that helped me to get to the "acceptance" place was working through The Grief Recovery Handbook with my second IC, the betrayal trauma specialist.

One thing about trauma is that our bodies can't tell the difference between infidelity trauma and being chased down by a cheetah. Your brain is going to think about what he's done because your mind is trying to make sure that you're no longer in danger. You can have the fight, flight, freeze or fawn response and may be why you feel hopeless and lost. Repulsed is because what he's done is repulsive and doesn't make any sense.

Even if he could remember, it's probable that he'd lie about it. Have you asked for a written timeline? Maybe not with all the details, but as much as he can remember? If he's wants R, he can at least put pen to paper.

As you heal and as time passes, your brain will calm down and then you will begin to realized that this may be all of the information that you'll ever have. It sucks and it isn't fair.

So sorry you're here.

It took a while to accept that the A happened and that it was totally because of my W's issues with herself, not issues with me or our M.

But my W was honest from d-day on. She took responsibility for her actions. You wrote that you believe your WS say IDR to avoid talking about his As. If he's lying, he's not a good candidate for R.

We tell people to focus on their own healing and to not try to control the outcome. You're forcing yourself to R with a person who lacks what I think are essential qualities for R. IOW, R is doomed for you unless you change your approach.

What are your requirements for R - real requirements, which means you will D unless he meets your requirements. I think you may be stuck because he's not meeting them.

That I don't need to agree with what happened or even pretend that it was ok, but just accept that it happened so I can work on healing and working on our relationship.

I buy that, but I think you need to consider D again. I think it's best to accept who you are, who your WS is, and what happened.

But your healing in part includes making a free choice about your responses to your WS and what happened. You have to accept, but you don't have to stay. IMO, one can't really choose to stay or go unless one believes both options will work out well in one way or another.

'Work on your relationship' doesn't necessarily mean 'R'; it might mean 'figure out how you'll interact during and after D.'

If you let your WS know what your requirements are, he may meet them. IOW, I'm not saying D is going to be your outcome, just that you need to change if you want R.

That's the crux: what do you want? Figuring that out will guide you to your next actions.

I apologize if this post got away one me...

I would concur with the recommendation to read Cheating in a Nutshell. I gave words to all of the contradictory feelings I had been experiencing post D-day.

My now EXWW has ADHD as well as other issues like undiagnosed aspergers which manifest as narcissistic behavioirs, though she isn't NPD. Being married to her was like being married to an egocentric teenager, so I constantly felt like a parent, carrying a disproportionate load in the M. I did this pre-D-day as I saw us as a partnership, but after D-day, everything shifted. It was like the currency in her various characteristics crashed and I had to reevaluate the relationship to see if it was worth it.

After about six months, I gave her a shit-test which she failed spectacularly and so I ended the M. You see, now that everything has shifted due to her infidelities, I had the freedom to step back and look at things objectively. I realized that she was not only not going to change, but was actually incapable of doing so. Seven years later, my observation has been confirmed and cement my adult daughters can see this. They occasionally comment on their mother's lack of maturity.

Had I chosen to stay, I would have condemned myself to a life of quiet desperation, living out my final decades never knowing peace. Maybe your WH has the ability to change and grow, but he, not you, has to do the work. YOU cannot carry both him and yourself.

Justsomeguy

What is the test you gave her?

What is the test you gave her?

Probably a simple question that required an honest answer. And the cheater just couldn’t do it.

I am assuming you already knew the answer JustSomeGuy.

Early on, our marriage counselor was simply the moderator of affair discussions. He helped explain to my husband the devastation I was feeling and my need for answers to questions asked over and over. It was not typical marriage counseling and husband was in IC with same counselor as well. If your counselor is truly trying to save the marriage at this point, find a new one. Husband had to agree with counselor that if any evidence of continued or further cheating was revealed or suspected in IC he’d no longer see him and and although he couldn’t legally reveal it to me, if he ever refused to treat husband I should realize why without being told. The man held husband’s feet to the fire.

You chose a user name that conveys your own personal experience with this betrayal trauma, and if you read much here you will recognize that it is a largely shared reaction. An IC that is telling you to just move on is dead wrong. When a loved one dies, we have customs to mourn. We deeply want to understand how and why, and those answers are supplied whenever possible without shaming the grieved. You aren’t salacious for wanting to know what happened, just human. You deserve it.

My experience is that while I was trying to reconcile with my exWW, I deeply needed to understand the affair to ever feel safe around her again. Secrets kept about it made me anxious and afraid. If you are going to even consider rebuilding the relationship, he owes you this as table stakes, to give you as much as he possibly can. It was also my experience that she never became transparent to me, and I only found peace again after I chose divorce. Again, if you read here, you will see that this doesn’t fade with time. If you don’t heal this properly, it can haunt you for life.

My WH is hurt that I haven't forgiven him yet.

This is nonsense and must be rejected completely. A betrayer does not get to reclaim the moral high ground as a victim of unforgiveness. This dynamic will poison any R attempts and be corrosive to your spirit. He utterly betrayed you. He is not owed forgiveness. If you choose to attempt to offer it, it will be the most costly gift you ever give in your entire life.

Just to respond to the question, at the end of my wait and watch period, I left on a solo road trip to really think about my life. When I returned, I asked her what specifically she was doing to help me heal? Her response was, "I can't ne there for you until you are in a better place because you make me feel too guilty."

It was at that moment I finally accepted that she was not only not going to change but was actually incapable of it.

I think that many BS's run on opium. I know I did for 27 years. We are decent, caring people who project those qualities onto our partners. It is sobering to come to terms with the fact that some people just aren't these things. For whatever reason, my WW was broken and could not be fixed. I knew she was transactional and performative by nature, so I purposely kept thec6 month window from her. I wantedc real change or confirmation it would not happen. And true to her nature, she did not make a single change. Books went unread, videos unwatched, articles unaccessed. While I scoured the internet for healing, she felt that if she stopped cheating, all would return to normal.

The problem with this was simple. While she chose stagnation, I chose growth. In the year after Dday1 and the months after Dday2, I grew immensely, essentially becoming a much better version of myself, while she remained a broken one. The juxtaposition was stark and I found myself increasingly unattracted to her. Intact, after Dday2, I found her repulsive.

So, when she answered the question, I knew there was no hope of going back and I pulled the plug. I don't know if she has regrets. I'd say she is certainly not nuero-typical and cat feel things like most do, so if she does feel anything, it's about her. Me, I have no regrets ending the marriage. Unlike some BS here, I never had a truly remorseful WS, so I'll never know. I could have white knuckled it, but I would never really love or respect her again. And I couldn't live a life like that. It would have been too inauthentic.

THIS:

My IC says I need radical acceptance.

Absolutely HORRIFIES ME. You don't have to accept someone's cheating, someone's repeated abuse of you and your kids FOR YEARS. No you DO NOT have to accept one iota of any of that because it is NOT acceptable.

I would recommend you dump this "counselor" and find an INDIVIDUAL counselor for yourself, someone who deals with trauma, infidelity counseling, things of that nature, because it sounds like your current counselor is telling you to OPEN WIDE - HERE COMES YOUR SHIT SANDWICH OF THE DAY!!! That's some radical rug sweeping.

Look, you have to process YOUR OWN FEELINGS about this without your WH involvement and just on your own with someone who is in your corner and willing to listen. Not with someone who just wants you to swallow your own feelings just to keep this shit show going. You don't need to keep a shit show going. You need to figure out if you can change it to what YOU WANT....or if you should leave. Also, if you haven't already, talk to a lawyer about what divorce looks like for you. Knowledge is power. You don't have to do D....but you CAN file and pull it back at any point if you want. It might not be a bad idea to just file for divorce because that changes the power dynamic in your relationship and lets WH know he better get his act together and start treating you like the PRIZE you are, instead of you having to deal with all this pain. This is a man who has never been committed to your marriage - to you - he has been cheating repeatedly throughout your marriage and commitment and serial cheating DO NOT go together. Do the individual counseling first, you need to strengthen yourself after the hurricane you've been through, and then in marriage counseling (but not with this fool you're going to) you can ask your WH...>WHAT DOES MARRIAGE MEAN TO YOU? I think some basic definitions need to be set here for both of you - basic definitions and expectations. I will tell you that the future likelihood of fidelity with a serial cheater are not good. They have basic character, personality flaws they usually can't or won't address and/or their ideas about marriage and family are often very different from ours. It can be hard to get the truth out of them even about this because they try to lie to suit what our expectations are. That's why you may need the assistance of a real marriage counselor to ascertain this.

It is theoretically possible for him to change, but.....I tend to doubt it. I think serial cheaters are radically different from faithful spouses or even 1 off cheaters and they have a basic lack of commitment or ability at deep relationships. Some people just never get it. If there's anything we need to accept, it's perhaps that our partner/spouse is not like us and does not have qualities or abilities that WE REALLY NEED AND REQUIRE in a relationship. That might not be anybody's fault, except for the lying, deception and things like STDs, unwanted pregnancies, etc, that come out of hiding this.

So right now.....DON'T ACCEPT ANYTHING and just reject that as a basic way of thinking. You need to set your own ground rules in life and in what you want from a marriage. Don't go back to this counselor any more. Find a good individual counselor for yourself with experience in this area. Talk to a lawyer about divorce, it will actually be reassuring to know the facts. The one thing I would say probably to accept is that....this IS how your spouse is as a person and he's probably not going to change. You can decide if you can live with that or not ultimately, but get the support and input you need before you come to any conclusions. STRENGTHEN YOURSELF - YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT HERE. YOU ARE THE INJURED PARTY. IT IS YOUR DECISION TO STAY OR GO. YOU DID NOTHING TO DESERVE THIS AND HE IS NOT A VICTIM IN ANY WAY.

Also....he may legitimately be forgetful but I think that's bullshit. I think it's just an excuse to hide things and make you or others feel sorry for him. He's the victim, boo hoo. He remembers a lot more than you think or he would not have been able to have a double life this long and conceal it from you. KEEP YOUR OWN JOURNAL - on line or in paper - ABOUT WHAT YOU KNOW, REMEMBER, THINK, FIND OUT - look for evidence and keep copies if you need it, always in a safe place where he won't find it. Don't forget he's devious, keep it under lock and key whether in a computer or physically. You can't really trust this guy, you know, and how can you continue in the most intimate relationship one can have, with someone you just can't trust?

Part of the problem that many people have with their memories is that when you tell a lot of lies, you can't keep them straight and so....you have a bad memory. No, you don't....you just tell too many lies and you get confused. My grandma cited the old maxim "A liar needs a good memory." And that's so basic and true because without one....how are you gonna remember all this stuff? It's his LYING that's the big problem, not the memory.