SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

T/j: very sorry (but maybe somewhat on the topic anyway)

I got to ask what the end goal of women in affairs is? For men, it's sex. And for women?

If men are already having sex in their marriage, then your statement is undeniably false.

So then what is a man's end goal?

Affairs = escape...from whatever is so difficult for the cheater. How is it escape? Obviously...new, validating, secret, exciting, validating, sexual, risky, dangerous, and validating.

Sounds a lot like doing drugs, driving race cars, gambling, extreme sports, etc!

Cheaters want to escape whatever is "wrong" in their head or heart or life, and as it turns out, many men like to escape into sex. But if they only wanted sex and not the validation, compliments, ego boost, risk, and excitement, they would just stay home and have sex!

Let's face it. As someone said earlier, women KNOW what men like to hear so we say it. And men do the same. So no, he wasn't the best sex she ever had, and no, he didn't love her. None of it is true, and that's why these supposed relationships don't last.

Ugh.

Simplifying sex into "just" something people do with, when, and how it feels "best" ignores about a gazillion other elements that are a part of a sexual relationship or encounter. I've had a lot of sex and said a lot of things during that sex that had everything to do with the nature of that relationship and nothing to do with my personal desires at that time. And I know that the guys were doing the same. That's how it goes, and we're all the same.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 5:20 AM, Monday, July 3rd]

I feel impotent because I’ve been made a cuckhold. How can she or another woman ever love me or want to be with me. I feel like garbage and I feel like I’m never going to be enough. I’m always going to have this thing in the back of my head that I’m not good enough sexually. I feel so empty. I don’t even know if I’d ever be able to believe her that I was enough for her if we figure out a way to reconcile. I feel so worthless.

Why are you basing the value of your self-worth on someone who has little to no respect for you?

Look, if it really bothers you that much, then you haver a choice; leave or stay.

Both will be difficult in their own right, and the path to both are strewn with obstacles.

Right now, it seems that you feel that you have compromised your own values. Before your WWs A, you might have been adamant that you would leave if ever there was an A, but now that you are staying, it is going against your beliefs.

Well, one thing about beliefs is that they can change. So, if you are staying, then how do you change your belief of leaving if an A happens? If you cannot change that belief, then it might be better for you on the long run to head towards D.

Obviously being a woman I don't know what it is like to have this exact insecurity, but I can relate well to sexual obliteration after infidelity. What a great term to describe it too. My XWH cheated on me with young women in their early 20s. I was in my 40s. Before he cheated, I felt sexy. I was attractive. I looked good for my age and I was happy about it. After, I felt old, fat, used up, sexually worthless. I had the post infidelity inability to eat, so I certainly got down to skinny enough for it to concern people. Still felt unattractive. I changed my wardrobe, still felt old and used up. Changed my hair, my walk, my make-up, nah. I realized that as long as I was with him, I would feel that sexual obliteration. I would feel unattractive. I would know that he preferred something other than me for sex. There was nothing I could do about that. I went from a confident sexually adventurous fun woman to feeling like a frumpy middle-aged consolation prize.

It was the wrong perspective to take, but I understand how it feels in the aftermath. I would just about guarantee that there's nothing wrong with your penis. There was nothing wrong with my appearance either. We weren't the ones lacking. All the time that you and I were married to our spouses, we could have sought out other people who would have had something bigger or better about them, but we didn't. We valued our partners for who they were and found them attractive. I don't think I believed this until I left him and had a one night stand with a much younger man who was physically his better in every way. I attracted someone more attractive than my ex at a time when I felt invisible and the opposite of sexy. It hit me that I had been attacking myself with his bad choices. That it had nothing to do with me.

My XWH irrevocably broke the relationship. No matter what he ever did, if he had been the perfect whatever in the aftermath, I would never have gotten past that. In the immediate aftermath when he was saying and doing all of the right things, all I could think was how it would be to have the knowledge that this particular man had betrayed me for something I could never be for the rest of my life. It felt like being condemned to hell. This part alone would have made it impossible for me to stay and feel safe and happy again.

I'm not suggesting that you stay or go. Some people seem to be able to get past this sort of wound. I couldn't. I wanted to validate your feelings here. I'm not going to get younger and you aren't going to grow a larger penis. Those things weren't our problem in the first place. If there's one place in the world that we should feel safe about these things, it's with our life partners. Your WW and my XWH broke that fundamental feeling of safety to be ourselves with them.

Why are you basing the value of your self-worth on someone who has little to no respect for you?

This, and DD’s great post.

You have gotten some great advice here. It is true that you weren’t the one lacking in this relationship, and in the end size is just a component of sex, and even a smaller component of a marrige or relationship. Many women actually complain about the skills of the more endowed men as they think their size means they don’t have to work as hard to please a women as the size will compensate.

What however is also true that an affair partner that has something you don’t is going to cause you to compare. It’s just human nature. My EXWW partner was decades younger than me, more endowed, in better shape, and got her to do things we didn’t. Kind of a straight royal flush of crap comparisons. She tried to tell me that it wasn’t better, and for her looking back I think that’s true. I also think that during the the time she was with him, at least initially, it was better. She obviously would never tell me otherwise.

I read boards, posted here, looked at articles that all said that sex in the committed relationship is ultimately better. Probably true. However it still doesn’t take the sting out out of my mind’s comparison with him. You should try to take the advice of those here, but also acknowledge it’s not like a switch you can just turn on or off. Some can, but others like me couldn’t. The answer for either alternative is to give it time.

I will say that in terms of other women there is hope going forward. Plenty of guys here have gone on to have sexually satisfying relationships with their cheating spouses. Ours sucked, but when I separated and divorced and I wasn’t looking into the eyes of someone who hurt me so much, I had plenty of great sex. This time for me with a few who were decades younger. (Not a permanent solution but a fun time anyway).

Take the time now to do things that will make you more attractive. Join a gym and get into great shape. Have a stylist or friend fix up your wardrobe. Anything to help you get your mojo back.

It sucks, but you can get through it.

Do you want to stay with her?

HurtAndBroken,

Just wanted to that I'm so sorry that you are dealing with these horrible thoughts.

I think all the previous posters have pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as any advice I might offer.

One thing that helps me when I start to spiral into negativity is humor. I'm not trying to minimize the pain your feeling, but sometimes a laugh can help. So here's some data I found on the interwebs (I can't figure out how to upload an image, but here's the summary):

Time-Dependence of Penis Size According to Your Girfriend

Just Met = Average
After first sex = Big
In love = XXL
After breakup = Tiny

As you can see, it's a pretty normal distribution like Bigger described earlier. And like DD said, your penis is fine. Your job is to find someone who appreciates it. And if that person is your wife, then the data above clearly demonstrate your superiority.

It seems she has her head up her ass right now though. I'm not sure I'd trust anything she says or sees. Like the parable of the blind dudes and the elephant. You need to let her pull her head out so she can see.

The question is, do you have the patience for that to happen? Many do, many don't. And it's F-ing OK whatever you decide.

When my FWW and her AP were chatting online in the lead up to their EA becoming a PA, he bragged about his size with the kind of dirty double entendres that APs and WSs use to grease the skids for the ride down their "slippery slope." It's possible that it was just a boastful lie since at that stage he had no reason to expect that she would actually try it out.

When I asked my WW about it after DD she claimed that he was about the same as me. Later she claimed that he was really quite small and that she had lied about it because she was embarrassed to admit it.

I accept that I'll never know the truth. When she changed the story to "small" she may have just felt that she needed to provide some salve for my ego to try to smooth things over. It doesn't matter at this point. Whether the guy was a horse or a pencil dick, I know I gave her many years of satisfying sex. Our sex life was always about me pleasing her more than vice-versa, and I have good reason to believe that I did that very well.

As I was finally getting a full timeline these many years later, there was one detail that hinted that she may have been truthful about him being small. I asked her about it obliquely but she failed to explain it in a way that confirmed the story.

But on the off chance that he did outperform me, either because of endowment or technique, that's not my problem. I gave it my all and that's all I got.

Even if it was better, a truly remorseful WS should take no pleasure in that memory. If understanding the pain and trauma that those acts created doesn't cause every memory of it to feel like a knife in their gut, then they're not fit for R.

The way she was with him, smirking, positions we’ve never done before, etc. it all just keeps weighing on me.

To me, this would be the bigger issue. If she was more enthusiastic or accommodating in her sex with him then she needs to rectify that with you going forward.

The dynamic of our sexual relationship didn't change during or after R. It was still about me pleasing her. Shared blame therapy and enthusiastic pick me dancing just naturally aligned with that.

It was only many years later when I finally got something approximating the full story that I realized that the relationships were flipped. Their relationship was about about her pleasing him as the means of getting the attention that she wanted.

We finally addressed that and things are now much more equal. But being past our sexual prime, the wasted years gall me. I suppose I can understand that she might have worried that showing a sudden enthusiasm for certain things that were always kind of routine foreplay for her before might have been a trigger, but there were plenty of opportunities to work around that and she was happy to stick with the status quo.

I don't know if I should post this here or not. I came across a Youtube video 2 or 3 years ago. A man was interviewing 2 former female pornstars inside of a broadcast studio. He had a British accent. Can't recall if the women did or not. So I don't know where the interview was done. The video was long for Youtube... over an hour. I only watched 10 or 15 minutes as this sort of stuff is not my usual cup of tea.

The only thing I remember from the video is one thing both of them said and emphasized. They both said that a man with 5 or 6 inches was best and most satisfying. One of them said that having sex with a man who had a sex member longer than that made her feel like she was being "poked" and that it was not pleasant. Sometimes it really hurt but she was being paid to act like she enjoyed it. She said that all the orgasms she had on film were fake. She said that she was just an actress... otherwise she was just like any other female. The other lady agreed with everything she said.

They both agreed that thickness or having a good girth felt good. One said that even if the man was average or even smaller in girth that there were some techniques he could use to make it seem thicker. I can't remember if they told what those techniques might be.

Because of prostate problems I have had in the past I watch a urologist on Youtube... Rena Malik, M.D. She sometimes has some good informative videos. She has made a couple of videos about length. She says that studies show the average penis is about 5 inches when it is erect. From my time in high school locker rooms and in military barracks latrines I would think the average length is smaller than what she said. On the other hand I have never seen another one besides mine when it was erect so I wouldn't know.

I have heard in the past that the biggest sexual organ for a man is not the genitals. It is the brain and I agree. If both participants are turned on then they probably aren't thinking much about size or anything else like that while they are engaged in sex.

I hope this post is helpful to this conversation.

As a person in a poly and open relationship, who does enjoy casual sex? Penis size is not even on my top ten list of qualities that make someone a sexual partner I'm interested in.

Part of me really thinks it's a male issue to hyperfixate on the penis. Sex doesn't even have to involve a penis for it to be great sex. The size is mostly irrelevant. Has absolutely zero to do with whether or not someone is a good sex partner.

Men do suffer from the temptation to hyperfixate on size and that's thanks to the porn industry. I went through a lot of my life never even thinking about it but once you watch any porn, the men are mostly large and so it enters your head a bit. I guess it probably makes for a better visual for a movie but the side effect is that if your woman cheats, it's become natural to worry about this despite the fact that all the science and all of human history shows us that any size can work for great sex if you put the time and effort into it.

There are some men who have strong preferences for a certain female attribute (like breast or butt size) but that doesn't mean they can't orgasm without it. Then there are many men who have no particular physical preference too. I think women are the same. Some may prefer large, some prefer average, some have no preference, but it is a fact that sex can be good or great with any size or as PSTI just said, without any penis at all, lol.

And I have learned from SI that many, many affairs happen with people where (if you are thinking attraction is all about sex, size or physicality) it is a head scratcher why it even happened. We have heard over and over that some BS's wife slept with a significantly older, less in shape, less handsome, less financially successful AP. Why? Because most A aren't really all about the AP. They are actually all about the WS and their own internal brokenness and fantasies.

Great post PSTI. I find this comment particularly thought provoking, especially in context of the BH/WW dynamic:

Part of me really thinks it's a male issue to hyperfixate on the penis. Sex doesn't even have to involve a penis for it to be great sex.

Fixating on anything is of course problematic, but I think that all people have to some degree dealt/struggled with body image issues.

Most men have penises. Seems like a no brainer that people without one might not have the same feelings about said appendage. I won't speak for others, but I know that I like to use mine! Call me crazy, but it would also be awesome if the person I'm being intimate with did as well. Now don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to be an enthusiastic and animated sex toy for my partner. I mean sign me up for the role of Edward Dildohands and let's enjoy the pleasure show.

But sometimes, I like to use my penis. It would sure be nice to receive the same enthusiasm and animation. If my partner said to me "I don't even need a penis for great sex," well that would definitely put the brakes on my running motor. If my partner had just cheated and said this to me...motor blown the fuck up. It's time for a re-build, and I would wonder whether or not it should be bigger. To be fair, I might also wonder whether it should be smaller, or maybe I should just take up biking.

All I know is that now I need to listen to "Fuck her Gently" by Tenacious D!

I wanted to address a few things in this thread chain.

Pleasure and Size

Without getting too graphic, my STBXH was very, very well endowed. Think Red Bull can large. Early on in the relationship sex was great, but for many years even before I found out the affair it had become mediocre at best. He would basically follow a script...do this, then that, then finish. The guy I am seeing now is average size and the sex is better in every way and not just because he makes the effort, although he does that, too. His size actually feels better, it hits the right spots in a way the ex didn't. I am absolutely certain that, if offered the chance to change penises - switch out current BF's for ex's - I would not do it.

Women Need Emotional Attachment for Sex

I've seen this VAST overgeneralization thrown around a few times here, that women NEED to feel something emotionally for someone to have sex. I am a woman and can say, unequivocally, this is not true. Is it true for some women? Sure. I'd even go so far as to say it's often better if there is an emotional attachment. However, I have had great sex with men I've barely known and terrible sex with men I cared for.

I think anytime we get into all women are like X or all men are like Y it is unhelpful.

Women Need Emotional Attachment for Sex

I've seen this VAST overgeneralization thrown around a few times here, that women NEED to feel something emotionally for someone to have sex. I am a woman and can say, unequivocally, this is not true. Is it true for some women? Sure. I'd even go so far as to say it's often better if there is an emotional attachment. However, I have had great sex with men I've barely known and terrible sex with men I cared for.

I think anytime we get into all women are like X or all men are like Y it is unhelpful.

Seconded.

I've known a few men who needed an emotional attachment, for that matter. This is an individual thing, not a gender thing.

Fixating on anything is of course problematic, but I think that all people have to some degree dealt/struggled with body image issues.

Most men have penises. Seems like a no brainer that people without one might not have the same feelings about said appendage. I won't speak for others, but I know that I like to use mine! Call me crazy, but it would also be awesome if the person I'm being intimate with did as well. Now don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy to be an enthusiastic and animated sex toy for my partner. I mean sign me up for the role of Edward Dildohands and let's enjoy the pleasure show.

But sometimes, I like to use my penis. It would sure be nice to receive the same enthusiasm and animation. If my partner said to me "I don't even need a penis for great sex," well that would definitely put the brakes on my running motor. If my partner had just cheated and said this to me...motor blown the fuck up. It's time for a re-build, and I would wonder whether or not it should be bigger. To be fair, I might also wonder whether it should be smaller, or maybe I should just take up biking.

Retrospected, may I ask why? Saying I don't need a penis for great sex does not mean I can't have great sex with [your] penis, assuming I was talking to you. It just means that sex involving a penis is one activity, but there are lots of other amazing ones that don't require one.

I certainly enjoy sex involving penises... but sex doesn't begin and end with one. This is always why I'm so confused when people say that erectile dysfunction means a dead bedroom. Why??? There are so many activities you can engage in that still involve intimacy for both partners and orgasm for at least one!

It's also why I find the concept of the term "foreplay" to be rather male centric and offputting. Foreplay is basically what happens before a penis goes in a vagina, like that's the main act and foreplay is just window dressing. It's all sex, and in my opinion? No particular act is any more important than any other.

Women Need Emotional Attachment for Sex

I've seen this VAST overgeneralization thrown around a few times here that women NEED to feel something emotionally for someone to have sex.

Of all the people who said,"Women Need Emotional Attachment for Sex," most of them were women. I mean, like 8/10. So, it's hella confusing when a woman calls it over generalization.

I think the easy thing would be to focus on what my partner likes/dislikes rather than what women in general likes/dislikes. The success rate of finding out what one woman/man wants is far greater than finding out what women/men in general want.

We are not here to sexually satisfy every single person. We only have our partner to satisfy. So, if we understand them well and have enough resource, knowledge and skills, then we don't have to worry about any insecurities and unnecessary pressure. Key is communication and honesty.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 2:30 AM, Thursday, July 6th]

Sex and affairs has very little to do with penis size.

As some one pointed out earlier, by the time she got to the point were she physically encountered AP penis, the infidelity had ALREADY occurred.

I have known for years that women always said penis size is not the most important thing, yet when my wife strayed it was the first thing I wanted to know. It is naturally instinctive to a man. It took reading the posts of some of the WW here like Brave Sir Robin, Hikingout and others to snap me back to reality.

I am in the top 10% of size and girth (statistically speaking) and still my wife strayed. We have NEVER had in our 22 years of marriage problems in the bedroom with the exception of a few month span where I was sick. Otherwise she has always rated our sex life as 12 on a scale of 1-10.

However what she was, was a 50 year old woman, feeling as if she was old and fat and not accomplished enough, and a mother who was going through a midlife crisis who was approached and pursued by a much younger man. This made her feel like "she still had it". It was this novelty and newness that was the excitement that stirred her which is something a BS can never be which is "new"

It was these feelings that led her to cross those boundaries. The dopamine rush she got was the medication for the pain that ailed her.

This is the thing that SI has helped me to understand most. The wayward is almost always seeking to escape from some level of pain. It is not about penis size or boob size, it is about what that wayward feels helps them cope with what they see as a crappy existence.

A healthy person would look to change why they feel the existence is crappy but the unhealthy looks for a way to medicate the feeling. Waywards tend to look for a quick fix or an easy way out in most areas of life and the affair is no different.

[This message edited by TrayDee at 5:50 AM, Thursday, July 6th]

Of all the people who said,"Women Need Emotional Attachment for Sex," most of them were women. I mean, like 8/10. So, it's hella confusing when a woman calls it over generalization.

My mom also thought I should like to play with Barbie dolls and not be so obsessed with Star Wars. Women can over-generalize about women too.

PSTI,

Ask away! I fully agree that there are tons of ways to make sex fun. Saying "Hey, your penis is amazing! So is this, that and the other. Let's try those too!" Awesome.

Saying "Your penis? Meh. I could do without. But these other things...Now we're talking" Not so awesome.

The later statement would make me less inclined to use my penis with my partner at all. I would certainly wonder if there might be something about it the they would prefer were different. Could I get over it? Most likely. I do know that I'm more than my penis. But if my partner had recently been out banging someone else's...I do think I would need a lot of help from them to convince me that our sex life is awesome. Including how my penis fits into the equation (sorry, bad pun!).

And dang! that's the most I've ever typed about penises! So just for the record, this issue is not something I obsess about. I also think on occasion that I could be taller, more God Bod and less Dad Bod, had green eyes, more wit, etc. But the vast majority of times I'm content with myself, and if I may say, awesome!

If you're still reading HurtAndBroken, I hope you find the same contentment and awesomeness. You can do it!