SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

… That I’ve felt bad enough about what I did, for long enough?

I’ve been reading here and on other infidelity support forums for several months now, and while there is lots of helpful information, the occasions where a BS makes a negative comment or assumption about all WS in general seem to really make me bristle. I find myself having imaginary arguments with the posters in my head for much of the day. I was trying to figure out why that was happening, as it’s very disruptive. I think it might be because I have a deep need to feel like I’m a good person worthy of love and marriage, and there’s some insidious voice inside of me that keeps saying that isn’t true. It latches onto those negative comments online, amplifies them, and plays them on repeat, and I’m scrambling to defend myself and the last, struggling bit of self-worth I have from it.

I don’t want to forget my infidelity, because I think it’s important to keep myself vigilant for any warning signs that I’m at risk of doing it again… But I don’t think this amount of guilt and shame and thinking about it that I’m doing now is of much benefit, if any, to me or my husband. It feels like not my place to decide when I’ve felt badly enough, for long enough, but maybe I can? I have a plan in place to keep my marriage safe while I work on myself. I’ve introspected a ton and identified key issues to resolve. Maybe I can just focus on that instead of my infidelity, and save thinking about it for when BH is triggered or seeking comfort/answers?

Am I treading the line between self-forgiveness and… I don’t know, letting myself off the hook? (Does that make sense to anyone, or just to me?)

IMO, R requires the WS to change from betrayer to good partner. Feeling bad hinders making that change. It takes energy away from doing the work a WS needs to do. Check into Karpman's Drama Triangle.

I agree with Sisoon. And it’s also true that the anguish that betrayer partners express is completely, truly, and utterly real. If anything, just assume that what they say is conservative to the pain they feel because they can’t find the words. Don’t entertain arguing with them.

ETA: after your comment about how you deceived others on Discord into their trust and turned on them, maybe just forget I posted on your thread.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 5:57 AM, Saturday, October 18th]

While I agree with the general sentiment here, I want to emphasize a few points.

​It's impossible to offer specific advice without knowing the context—your story, what you did, and why. However, your current feeling of self-hatred is the most immediate consequence of your actions.
​For change to happen, a person needs to face accountability. When a partner chooses to stay after infidelity, the traditional external consequence (a breakup) is avoided. This makes the self-hatred you feel incredibly important; it's the internal mechanism that holds you accountable and fuels your drive to change into a trustworthy partner.

​I don't believe that "anyone could cheat." Infidelity usually signals a deeper issue that needs to be addressed. Your goal now is to channel the intensity of your self-hatred into constructive action—therapy, sincere communication, and consistent behavior—to prove to yourself, as much as to your husband, that you are capable of fundamental change.

the occasions where a BS makes a negative comment or assumption about all WS in general seem to really make me bristle. I find myself having imaginary arguments with the posters in my head for much of the day. I was trying to figure out why that was happening, as it’s very disruptive.

Perhaps I am wrong, but this opinion seems to stem from a failure to fully grasp the severity and uniquely damaging nature of infidelity. To many, it represents the most devastating legal offense one can commit—an act of betrayal that wounds a loved one to the deepest possible extent, functioning as a form of prolonged psychological abuse.

​I do not fully understand your logical premise regarding the treatment of cheaters. What is the appropriate response a betrayed spouse or society, for that matter, should have toward those who commit betrayal? Do you not believe that negative commentary or moral condemnation is justified when addressing such a profound violation of trust?

​The final point is that this stance of non-judgment could easily be extended to any person who has committed an immoral act. Should we, as a society, refrain from being critical of con artists or thieves? And would it truly be reckless to make certain assumptions about the character of individuals who willfully cause such harm?

I think it might be because I have a deep need to feel like I’m a good person worthy of love and marriage

Don't we all. My recommendation would be to begin working on acting in a way that's worthy of these things. I don't feel cheating is an example of such worth

I hope you find happiness

I’m going to have to chew on Karpman’s drama triangle for a while, and really figure out how to move out of it, but I think that will be a really applicable and helpful concept here. Thank you, Sisoon.

I understand BS are people who are very deeply hurt, and that’s where these sweeping generalizations are coming from… Engaging with "Well, not all of us!" defensively hasn’t been useful, so I am just trying to remind myself that I know what I’m like and what my situation is. It doesn’t matter (or at least it shouldn’t matter) what anyone else thinks of me, really, and I have more important things to focus on IRL…

I think the other thing that is hard to let go of is that these places paint themselves to be supportive of both the BS and the WS, with the goal of surviving, recovering from, and stopping infidelity and its root causes, and the negative generalizations seem to be in direct contrast with that goal. There are ways of speaking badly of infidelity without speaking broadly and badly of WS themselves, such that they get pushed away or so laden with self-loathing and shame that they can’t be functional. I don’t think we need coddle or excuse people who commit infidelity, by any means, but a more accurate and complete understanding of them would be more effective towards the general goals of these spaces.

I’ve experienced an awful lot of moments in my life where I’ve been anxiously raising my hand and saying, "But wait, if we did it like this, it could be so much better…" whether that was with my FOO, at home, at work, or in other situations, only to be ignored and forced to continue on doing things the less efficient/effective way while participating in that environment. (I like to joke that the Capricorn in me can’t stand that!) But I think I just need to accept that sometimes that happens, and remind myself that everything will be okay regardless. I need to be able to congratulate myself on my insight and feel proud, instead of having that "I told you so, didn’t I? But nobody listens to me!" and being mired in anger and the need to be seen as insightful by others, when situations play out that way.

[This message edited by Ghostie at 3:07 PM, Saturday, October 18th]

On the workings of one staff member's mind....

Supporting a person (BS or WS) doesn't mean agreeing with what they say.

The US supreme court rulings on free speech do not cover private 'places' like Internet fora. At the same time, I prefer not to censor speech, and I believe no staff member wants to censor speech. I think that's why SI has guidelines. I post a lot as a human being and as a BS, but I respond as a member of the staff only when a post violates guidelines.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:59 PM, Saturday, October 18th]

I’m not saying that supporting someone requires agreeing with them. What I mean is that saying things like

"I would never do that. Only shitty people would do this thing"

is neither helpful nor supportive, when something like

"I presently cannot see myself making that decision personally, but I’m open to hearing about situations that might put me or other people more at risk of doing the shitty thing, so that we can reduce the likelihood that people do the shitty thing and hurt others."

Could be said instead. Like the "Waywards are bad people and you they should hate themselves" sentiment isn’t doing anyone any favors, especially when an absence of self-love and self-worth is so often a huge part of the reason why WS turn to infidelity in the first place.

It’s not "censorship" to consciously make that change in your own speech.

You can avoid condoning infidelity without taking a shit on the infidels themselves, especially when they’re in spaces like these trying to be better. It’s like if an AA group was having a meeting in the same high school gymnasium as a support group for the loved ones of alcoholics, but the latter was loudly insulting alcoholics themselves as a whole and it was echoing around the gym… And then half the alcoholics go home and have a stiff drink because they can’t stand to be sober and alone with themselves. Like what purpose does that serve??

Anyway. It’s not my job to be concerned about this. Whether these places impair the self-improvement of WS or not, I spoke up. The outcome is not my fault.

[This message edited by Ghostie at 4:37 PM, Saturday, October 18th]

...I have a deep need to feel like I’m a good person worthy of love and marriage, and there’s some insidious voice inside of me that keeps saying that isn’t true.

I don’t think this amount of... thinking about it that I’m doing now is of much benefit,

I think you'll find that untangling this knot will lead you to becoming a much happier, healthier and wiser person. So, thinking about it, really digging deep into yourself-- your spirit, soul, philosophy, consciousness, however you describe it--will be of tremendous benefit.

We all have our own issues. Sometimes, for all sorts of reasons, we come to accept untruths about ourselves. Unlearning untruths about ourselves is often extremely difficult.

I don't know if you're walking a fine line between forgiving yourself and letting yourself off the hook. I think this question stems from the same issues you described above.

Might be that I am coming from a different point on the shame, guilt, self-loathing spectrum (meaning the far end), but I have not experienced the same on this site specifically. I have experienced that on Reddit, but believe that a BS will always have a difficult time understanding the wayward point of view.

I struggle every day with the terrible choices I made many years ago. For the first few years I was able to compartmentalize in such a way that I never really thought about it. Similar to the time of my infidelity I was able to build a wall in my mind that kept the two worlds entirely separate. In retrospect, I think it is my brains response to the trauma of what I was doing as I am pretty sure I would have had a mental breakdown without that wall.

I recently disclosed my infidelity after 20 years despite there being no chance anyone would have ever found it out. I could not live with myself, but wanted to make sure that I was not disclosing solely for me. I only raise this so no one thinks that daily shame spirals will last for 20 years.

To your specific question, I am not sure what forgiving myself would even entail. I have spent a long time trying to understand what contributed to my choices. My FOO and the associated trauma definitely did, but others with similar backgrounds have made better choices so I do not view that as an excuse, but rather baggage I need to understand and process to be a whole person (for both my BS and myself). I do not envision a time where I will not feel profoundly sad when I think of my infidelity, but I hope that the times I think about it get fewer and fewer as time goes on. I am fascinated by the brain and think it has an amazing capacity to heal with the right process and time.

I am very blessed that my BS is all in on reconciliation and that is what drives me to focus on how I can better myself. That process will involve getting away from the shame and focusing on her. It is less about what that does for me (although it is a more healthy approach) and how it helps us both heal.

Very much wish you good fortune in your journey. I rarely post on other threads as I feel like I have little to offer at this stage, but your post resonated. I have found the support on this site (especially the wayward side) to be invaluable.

Might be that I am coming from a different point on the shame, guilt, self-loathing spectrum (meaning the far end), but I have not experienced the same on this site specifically.

My experience on SI has been that the community responds (on the whole) very graciously to humility and honesty. You have shown those in spades. Anything else is met with suspicion at best, more likely direct challenge, because the only legit posture post infidelity is to be honest and humble. Anything else is just more of the game.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic but rather trying to get you to see the perspective of other forum users:

"I would never do that. Only shitty people would do this thing"

is neither helpful nor supportive

I understand your broader point here but in my opinion this response can be true and valuable.

I genuinely do not think I would never cheat and think in order to cheat you have to be a shitty person. I don't think this is a controversial or damaging opinion.

In saying such a comment, I'm not condemning someone to be a shitty person for life. I believe people can improve and work at not being that way.

You talk about not coddling people... Well this is exactly coddling someone. Call a spade a spade. To cheat you simply do have to be a shitty person. We are here to help people to own that and not be shitty moving forward.

I've spoken with many former cheaters who will agree with this. When they were abusing their spouse they were being shitty. They're happy to admit that.

In my experience we have a world divided by direct and indirect people. The direct ones say " Quit being stupid" (the Red Foreman’s)
The indirect ones say " Your decision was the result of your relationship with your parents and your abandonment issues" (the Kramers)
The Kramers get their feelings hurt when the Foreman’s spout tough love and the Foreman’s are infuriated by the lack of common sense. On and on it goes.

I don't know your whole story, or how your recovery is going overall. You mention you are keeping your marriage safe, but are you actually engaging with your husband deeply?

To me, it would seem right to actually grow in the magnitude of hatred for the actions that broke your husband's heart. It does not mean you you hate yourself as a whole of course. You are precious and worthy of love just as any. Focus on your loyalty and new purpose to be all in with your husband. Make amends.

One thing I read on a Reddit post I felt was just amazing and may help you.....read below...

"I will say this: the most important factor in reconciliation *by far* is true remorse. Not "being sorry" or "regretting the betrayal" (even when those feelings are completely genuine and real), not feeling guilty or ashamed. Sorrow and regret are still self-focused, keeping the wayward’s attention on themselves, their own emotional state, their own needs and wants.

When a wayward is truly remorseful their entire perspective and outlook shift, and their priorities are refocused on *you*. On your needs and wants, on giving you reassurance and peace of mind, on doing anything in their power to help you to heal and to find peace. A remorseful partner is razor focused on *you*, not on themselves. They take the initiative to go out of their way to look for ways to help you, to reassure you, to help you heal. No sacrifice feels like "too much" to a truly remorseful wayward partner. They acknowledge the fact that they wronged you for no good reason, that it was fully their choice and responsibility, and that they had no right to do so."

I wish you well and deep healing ...🙏

I think the consensus here is that WSes cheat because of issues they have within themselves. I'm certainly convinced of that. That means R depends on the WS changing themself from betrayer to good partner, and that requires the WS to be focused on healing themself.

A writer who has concluded R works best when the WS is razor-focused on the BS is essentially recommending 'love-bombing,' which does not address the most critical problem. Certainly part of the WS's work is to demonstrate commitment to the BS, if the WS wants to R, but R won't happen unless the WS heals - and nobody can heal the WS except the WS themself.

Some WSes use guilt and regret as substitutes for doing the work they need to do. 'Razor focusing on eth BS can be another way of avoiding the work.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:00 PM, Sunday, October 19th]

I believe if the WP has become razor focused on the Betrayed (in truth), then they have in fact become a good partner.

Certainly, it likely is not some sort of instantaneous transformation, but if kept in the view as the destination, then hindrances of self can be tackled as they are encountered.