sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 3:37 PM on Sunday, October 12th, 2025
IMO, a WS has to change behavior to heal. That's the goal - new behavior. Energy spent on 'understanding' is, at best, only indirectly related to changing behavior. That's why I wrote that understanding slows down healing. And anything that slows a WS's healing can also slow a BS's healing.
I get that a WS might think, 'I was angry that my BS didn't wash dishes, and I used that as justification for cheating instead of setting a new boundary.' But that would have done nothing for me if my W had said it, unless it was followed by, '...And now I see how big a mistake in judgment that is.'
WSes need to realize on d-day that much of what they think they know is downright wrong. They need to use their energy and intelligence first to understand and later to be understood. They need to question everything they've told themselves in the past.
fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex apDDay - 12/22/2010Recover'd and R'edYou don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.
WB1340 ( member #85086) posted at 5:11 PM on Monday, October 13th, 2025
About 4 or 5 years ago I asked my wife what she thought about us going to an MC to learn how to communicate better and her response was an immediate NO. I asked why not and she said it could bring up other problems in our marriage and now I'm standing there thinking what other problems? What other problems do we have that are so big that we can't even discuss them?
I said well wouldn't it be a good idea to talk with an MC to work on these problems and she said NO, I think it's a bad idea so I dropped it.
So I went and found an IC to help me learn how to communicate better. When I told my wife I had an appointment with an IC she got upset. She said why didn't you talk to me about this and I said I tried and you were adamantly against the idea so I'm going by myself.
I tried to bring those new found skills home but whenever I would try to talk to my wife about a problem she would just put up her wall, cross her arms, shut down the conversation and that became our status quo
In hindsight my wife realizes that if we had gone to MC when I asked the affair probably would not have happened so I feel zero guilt about the state of our relationship when she did what she did. If anything, I get mad when I think had she not been so God damn stubborn and we had gone to MC we would not be trying to save a 27-year relationship :/
[This message edited by WB1340 at 5:12 PM, Monday, October 13th]
D-day April 4th 2024. WW was sexting with a married male coworker. Started R a week later, still ongoing...
Mindjob ( member #54650) posted at 3:07 AM on Tuesday, October 14th, 2025
"Understandable" in its strict definition requires no marital quality context. One can perfectly understand why any WS decided to be unfaithful in his or her selfishness and lack of integrity.
"Understandable" in the sense of "mildly justified" is simply a morally incorrect paradigm.
I don't get enough credit for *not* being a murderous psychopath.
Seeking2Forgive ( member #78819) posted at 7:46 AM on Tuesday, October 14th, 2025
Whenever I hear someone refer to infidelity as "understandable" I'm reminded of Chris Rock's OJ joke. "I'm not saying he should have killed her. But I understand."
One of the things that finally woke me up to how badly I had bought into the gaslighting was many years later when I read the book "Cheating in a Nutshell." It explained how the victims of trauma naturally engage in self-blame and adapt their thinking about events to align with that.
My WS blamed her A on the fact that I had become depressed and distant over the loss of a family member and then later the loss of my job. She felt abandoned and unloved, she said. What a monster I was while going through one of the most difficult periods of my life. For a moment our relationship wasn't all about her happiness.
When I finally put the timeline together years later (I didn't get one at the time), I realized that on the day she was going off to consummate her A she confronted me about what she saw as my problem. "You're not yourself and you need to get help," she said. My response was, "What are the going to tell me? 'You're depressed because you're out of work?' I just need to get a job and I'll be fine."
Our shared blame therapist called that "contributing to the state of the marriage that led to the affair."
It was only when I could finally shed that blame and see the true story that I realized that she had actually started checking out of our marriage years before I discovered her A. I felt like I was losing her but my fantasy of our "true love" didn't allow me to even consider that. I was depressed over the way she was treating me before any of those other events.
Would you ever buy into the idea that spousal abuse, even just psychological abuse, is "understandable?" Because that's what an affair is. "Baby, why you make me do you this way?"
Marriage problems are a reason to seek marriage solutions. If your spouse won't engage in that process it's a reason to set boundaries and eventually exit the marriage. It's not a reason to lie, cheat, and betray your spouse while you continue to enjoy whatever benefits are preventing you from exiting the marriage.
[This message edited by Seeking2Forgive at 7:47 AM, Tuesday, October 14th]
Me: 62, BS -- Her: 61, FWS -- Dday: 11/15/03 -- Married 37 yrs -- Reconciled
DobleTraicion ( member #78414) posted at 12:28 PM on Tuesday, October 14th, 2025
"Does have a shitty marriage make it more understandable"?
My first thought: Does having a self-built home with a serious foundation issue that can be fixed with a lot of work by both home owners/builders make it more understandable as to why a H or W decides to unilaterally bring in a wrecking ball and demolish said home (with their spouse inside)?
Answer: Not one bit.
Heres another perspective shared by a friend. He told me about a therapist that he and his wife had gone to. When they sat down, both spouses talked about how "their marriage had serious problems". The therapist listened for a moment and then asked, "Would you please introduce me?" They looked at the therapist and at each other very confused. "What do you mean?", they asked. "Introduce you to who?". The theralist responded, "To "Marriage", I dont see them here. You said that it was "Marriage" who had all the problems and Id like to meet them and ask some questions before we get started." They got it then. They had been using "marriage" as the scapegoat. The deflection instrument. The truth is/was that marriage had zero problems. The two flawed people in the marriage were the genesis of ALL of the f ups. Once that fact had been established and accepted, they actually made progress and are doing well today. The foundation problem had been addressed with both home builders addressing it equally.
Infidelity stands alone. It is its own category. The wrecking ball. The nuclear option. Like swatting a bee with a howitzer.
Now, IF, like the OP, somehow the obliterated BS decides that there is a way forward to R with a 100% remorseful WS, then there can be no scapegoating (the "marriage" had the problem). The adultery issue must be 100% owned by tbe perpetrator, dealt with and atoned for before any past issues can be addressed. Ironically, that effort will be delayed, possibly for years, until the devestation of the A has been thoroughly dealt with and healed from.
[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 2:28 PM, Tuesday, October 14th]
"You'd figure that in modern times, people wouldn't feel the need to get married if they didn't agree with the agenda"
~ lascarx
Formerpeopleperson ( member #85478) posted at 2:35 PM on Tuesday, October 14th, 2025
I think there’s a range of "character" in human beings.
Some people will never cheat, no matter the circumstances in their lives. Maybe it’s religious conviction, or integrity, or honor.
At the other end, we have those we might term amoral. They’re going to do whatever feels good to them, without regard to who they hurt.
In between are, I suspect, most of us. We won’t cheat absent the necessary provocation. For some, it might take great provocation. Others, not so much.
We read here of those who have "revenge" affairs. Would they have stepped out absent their partners malfeasance? Some people drink too much. Some are miserable. None of this excuses cheating.
My WW and I were our one and only’s for awhile. She’s still mine, but I’m no longer hers. I’ve been tempted to even the score, but have resisted thus far. Is it my strength of character, or maybe the right circumstances just haven’t happened.
There, but for the grace of God, go I.
It’s never too late to live happily ever after
DayByDay96 ( member #86550) posted at 3:04 PM on Tuesday, October 14th, 2025
Piggybacking off of what formerpeopleperson said,
I think it’s really dangerous for any individual to assume that they would "never" cheat in any circumstance, because [insert morals/personal values/characteristics.] None of us have been in every situation to be able to say that for certain.
I certainly felt that I would never cheat on my husband, because I love him and didn’t want to hurt him and cheating is wrong and all that… and then I let my guard down because I believed I was safe from it, and rationalized my way down the slippery slope until I crossed the line and did the unthinkable. I fully believe that anyone could do it, with the right circumstances, and insisting that you couldn’t because your character is sound, or whatever, is dangerous. You don’t know that your character is sound until it’s been tested. You don’t know what issues you have lurking under the surface until they become a legitimate problem, and so you need to be aware that they’re a distinct possibility, and look out for the warning signs. Always be wary, and continue to introspect.
Me - WW, 28
BH - 53
DDay - July 15th, 2025
The1stWife ( Guide #58832) posted at 3:06 PM on Tuesday, October 14th, 2025
In my experience and from what I have seen posted here at SI, the cheaters typically don’t go to marriage counseling (or any counseling) because they often want to either continue cheating OR not accept responsibility or be accountable.
I remember suggesting we go to counseling but of course my cheating H refused. Because he just wanted to be a lying cheating jerk for a few more months.
So I went alone to my counselor.
And it was the best thing I did for myself. And my kids. And my job.
I was not aware of SI at the time of his affair. Sadly I was still too naive and trusting.
HINT: no to counseling from the cheater can be 🚩🚩🚩👎🏼
Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled. 12 years out from Dday. Reconciliation takes two committed people to be successful.
Unhinged ( member #47977) posted at 5:34 PM on Tuesday, October 14th, 2025
I fully believe that anyone could do it, with the right circumstances, and insisting that you couldn’t because your character is sound, or whatever, is dangerous. You don’t know that your character is sound until it’s been tested.
I fundamentally disagree. I'm quite certain that plenty of folks out there have had the opportunity and declined because of their character and personal values.
ETA: You're on a website in which the vast majority of members struggle to understand why anyone could commit infidelity.
[This message edited by Unhinged at 5:40 PM, Tuesday, October 14th]
Married 2005
D-Day April, 2015
Divorced May, 2022
"The Universe is not short on wake-up calls. We're just quick to hit the snooze button." -Brene Brown
4characters ( member #85657) posted at 7:27 PM on Tuesday, October 14th, 2025
@daybyday96
Not trying to further derail the thread, but I agree with you, and I think it’s an important point to make.
I have never cheated on anyone before, and I’m strongly against it, have no intention of ever doing it. It’s really part of my core belief system.
However, one of the lessons I’ve learned from my ww is that if she could do it, how are any of us fully immune?
Prior to d-day I would’ve swore that I was 100% incapable of cheating on anyone because I found it to be so dishonorable and disgraceful to my own self image.
But now, seeing this person that I held in such high regard, fall out of the heavens beneath the weight of her own lies and misdeeds, my calculation of risk is more like 98% certain.
I now see infinitely as a risk to all people, not just "the weak ones" or "the scum bags". I think it’s really predicated on many factors that can be more or less challenging based on the amount of stress a person may have at the time. As well as the amount of opportunity and emotional intelligence each person has.
That said, there’s never an excuse for betrayal, and no person should be unaccountable for it. But as I look back at my own situation with my ww, I think I understand how it happened and why. I still believe she’s a good person and I’ve forgiven her, even if that means I eventually have to divorce her because she’s not a safe partner.
My hope is that by recognizing that under the right circumstances, I could also be challenged, I might avoid the hubris that would lead me to do such a horrible thing to another person.
[This message edited by 4characters at 7:33 PM, Tuesday, October 14th]
Muggle ( member #62011) posted at 1:23 AM on Wednesday, October 15th, 2025
This might be more like asking if one level of hell is worse than a deeper one.
Such a loaded question. In the end we all carry burdens that aren't ours to bear. We have ups and downs. Trials and triumphs.
A "shitty" marriage to one might not be as bad to someone that's had worse. I think it's subjective.
In the end, hurt is hurt. You don't deserve it. It might make it more palatable if you feel you had a horrible marriage, but on some deeper level it still hurts to be treated so disrespectfully.
No one is out there fighting to be lied to, cheated on, abused or neglected. We aren't going to see a line forming with people yelling, "pick me".
Theevent ( member #85259) posted at 2:09 AM on Wednesday, October 15th, 2025
Prior to d-day I would’ve swore that I was 100% incapable of cheating on anyone because I found it to be so dishonorable and disgraceful to my own self image.
I've always known I was capable of cheating. We all are, just as we are all are capable of doing other horrible things.
Thats the difference between my wife and I. She never thought she was capable of this, and because of that didn't have her guard up. Her guard against others and against herself.
I had my guard up, and held strong boundaries exactly because I understand that this is a possibility if I allow it.
Does that make me better than? No. Just more prepared.
This is a skill WSs need to learn IMO.
Me - BH D-day 4/2024 age 42
Her - WW EA 1/2023, PA 7/2023 - 6/2024, age 40
Married 18 years,
2 teenage children,
Trying to reconcile
jailedmind ( member #74958) posted at 10:55 AM on Wednesday, October 15th, 2025
We allow it. What punishment enforces people not to cheat? Do we teach it in school? Do we show our children how to treat each other correctly? Hell our catholic school had the principal banging one of the teachers. They were both married. Look at our media, our movies. We have glorified cheating. We have made it the norm. Hell most places have no fault divorces. Shitty marriage, well no problem, do something that makes YOU feel good. This self blame from a BS is a reaction from a serious trauma that your brain is trying to adjust to. Your brain needs to find answers and it’s trying to give you an answer you can understand. So I had a hand in the shitty marriage is no excuse for your spouse to cheat. People cheat. People lie. Your spouse cheats. Your spouse lies. They made a decision. It did not include you. It did not include your children. It was solely about them. They were not thinking of you while they were fucking someone else. Any thought of you was after. Then the cognizant dissonance happened and they justified their actions. And the cycle repeated until they got caught. Taking any blame for that isn’t on the BS’s shoulders. WS is an adult with agency. They knew what they were doing was wrong. Giving them an out is being codependent because you don’t want them to feel shitty. Because in your subconscious if they feel shitty they might do it again and you can’t take the rejection. Take back your power. Shifting blame is a precursor to repeat behaviour. The WS is 100% at fault regardless of the marriage issues. Without serious consequences the WS will never change. "Change happens when the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change" I have played the "If I was only" game. The result was the same. She cheated. I could have been Ghandi and the result would have been the same. The WS is broken. They need to fix themselves. The BS needs to learn tough love. And that rejection isn’t the end of the world. The BS then gets the injustice of having to fix themselves from the sheer stupidity of the WS actions. The WS can justify their actions any way they like. But at the end of the day any "issues" in the marriage have been eliminated by their use of the nuclear option. Poor coping and poor decision making are not my problem. Without consequences there is no change. People don’t change because they want to. They change because they have to. We as a society have forgotten that.
Pogre ( member #86173) posted at 1:49 PM on Wednesday, October 15th, 2025
DayByDay96 wrote:
I think it’s really dangerous for any individual to assume that they would "never" cheat in any circumstance, because [insert morals/personal values/characteristics.] None of us have been in every situation to be able to say that for certain.
I agree. Up until this happened, despite any other issues we had, I was one of those "not MY wife" guys when it came to infidelity. She really did not seem the type at all. I still can't believe it happened.
But yeah, I don't think anyone is immune. They just haven't had the right convergence of circumstance, person, and opportunity yet. Some may never see that perfect storm. Maybe even most, but I believe anyone is capable now.
Where am I going... and why am I in this handbasket?
Theevent ( member #85259) posted at 4:33 PM on Wednesday, October 15th, 2025
But it makes me so sad. Why did our marriage go so far off the rails? It’s hard for me sometimes not to think I played some part in pushing my husband away. The time of his affair I really was mean. I didn’t communicate my feelings, I wouldn’t show any affection, I wouldn’t even give him a cuddle let alone have sex. I was so unhappy.
I sometimes wonder if he would have done this if we were happy at the time? Does it actually even matter either way? It’s honestly the question that makes me crazy!!!
I've stuck to my guns and refused to let her blame me for her bad choices, but I feel a lot of guilt over the state of our relationship and can't help but feel she would never have done it if we were as close as we should have been all those years.
The year my wife cheated on me I consider one of our best years of our relationship. We were spending lots of time together. Talking, going on walks, playing games, snuggling. Lots of sex. Went on a nice vacation. Everything normal or better than normal. We almost never fought or had hard times between us. I did notice small changes in her, but nothing bad enough for me to suspect an affair.
After she revealed her affair to me, the flood gates opened and all of her grievances came out at me full power. It was day and night. The week before she was happy and I had no idea of any of these issues, the next week she was full of anger over all sorts of things I didn't do correctly in our relationship over the years. I tolerated this behavior only because I was in total shock, and confusion.
I am not perfect, but I have been a damn good husband and father. There is NOTHING in our history that one could point to and say "if you had been better here she wouldn't have cheated".
Regardless of how good of a husband I was, she still found things to find flaws in. She still found reasons to be angry. She still cheated. Weather those reasons caused her to cheat, or they were amplified/added later because of her guilt is not important. Something inside her is what allowed her to cheat. Not anything I did.
I also did the "what did I do wrong" thing. I searched and searched, and took blame I didn't deserve. Util it dawned on me that I don't control her, and anything I might have done wrong in the relationship did not in any way deserve being cheated on. She was upset, and used the nuclear option instead of trying to address the issues. Thats on her.
If my wife can cheat on me during the best year of our relationship, that shows that it's not about the relationship. It's about problems inside her.
I think regardless of the affair, it's good to notice things you do that you aren't proud of, and fix them for your sake. Not because you think it will prevent another affair. Thats not possible.
Me - BH D-day 4/2024 age 42
Her - WW EA 1/2023, PA 7/2023 - 6/2024, age 40
Married 18 years,
2 teenage children,
Trying to reconcile
WB1340 ( member #85086) posted at 5:11 PM on Wednesday, October 15th, 2025
Jailedmind summed it up perfectly. My wife and I have this dream of retiring to some land in rural Tennessee, building a small house, and living out the rest of our days in quiet comfort. The morning of the day I discovered what she was doing I had emailed a listing for some land for sale and she replied with I love it :)
Fast forward to early afternoon the same day and my world imploded. That's when I discovered what she was doing with a male coworker. 27 years of trust evaporated, dreams evaporated, everything I thought I knew to be real and safe and secure disappeared
When I confronted her she sat there, Arms crossed, shooting daggers at me with her eyes. She tried deflecting, she tried gaslighting, she tried minimizing, and when none of that worked she switched to anger and then accusations that I was hiding secrets from her. All of it was a desperate attempt to sweep this under the rug. Her last comment was I'm sorry this upsets you and she said it with zero empathy in her voice so to me it appeared our marriage was over. I was convinced the two of them had an Exit Plan and I just happened to stumble into it
This happened on Thursday afternoon. Friday morning she came downstairs ready to go to work and was still angry at me, zero empathy, which just reinforced my conviction that this guy was her Exit Plan. When she came home from work that afternoon I said I need time to think and I can't do that if we're bumping into each other and I will not spend the weekend staring at the ground. I cannot make you leave but I need you to leave. There's a suitcase upstairs so please leave. She stared at me for a few seconds, walked upstairs, packed a bag, came downstairs, said something to our kids, walked into the kitchen and said I'm leaving and I said okay and with that she walked out the door
For all I knew she drove straight to a hotel, called him and said here's where I am, come be with me. I honestly didn't care where she went as long as she wasn't in the house. The moment I said there's a suitcase upstairs, I need you to leave, that's when the reality that our marriage may be ending hit her square in the face. That's when she realized that her "harmless flirting" as she put it wasn't so harmless after all.
I think affairs ratcheted up as more and more states adopted no fault divorce because now there was no consequence for cheating. So many men were hung out to dry when they filed for divorce because their wife cheated. If the wife was a stay-at-home mom the court would order the man to pay child support, alimony, and possibly be ordered to maintain the house because it was in the best interest of the children. Meanwhile the destroyed husband gets to live in a shitty one-bedroom apartment on the wrong side of town while his ex-wife enjoys her freedom and most of his paycheck
D-day April 4th 2024. WW was sexting with a married male coworker. Started R a week later, still ongoing...
Unhinged ( member #47977) posted at 5:16 PM on Wednesday, October 15th, 2025
Does having a shitty marriage make it more understandable?
What if we rephrase the OP's question?
Does admitting we are all capable of infidelity make it more understandable?
Does that also apply to rape? Since anyone is capable of rape its understandable?
Driving drunk?
Murder? If everyone is capable of murder does it make it more understandable?
Under the wrong circumstances?
I'm not perfect. I'm far from it. I do, however, truly believe that people are quite capable of maintaining their integrity, keeping to their morals and values, even in very worst of situations, riding out "a perfect storm" rather than succumbing to it.
It's a false generalization to believe that anyone is capable of anything because of some nebulous and vague assumptions about a "perfect storm."
I give humanity a bit more credit.
Married 2005
D-Day April, 2015
Divorced May, 2022
"The Universe is not short on wake-up calls. We're just quick to hit the snooze button." -Brene Brown
Seeking2Forgive ( member #78819) posted at 5:38 PM on Wednesday, October 15th, 2025
I once thought that it would be impossible for my FWW to cheat. So I know better than to think that it is impossible that I would ever cheat. I think it's very unlikely. But Phoebe Cates has never emerged from our pool in a red bikini.
But then again, I have never invited her over. And if she showed up at our door for a swim I would tell her that's probably not a good idea with my wife away.
My FWW often told the "slippery slope" story and I accepted that. But when we finally put together a timeline I realized that was BS. It wasn't a slippery slope, it was a long climb up a steep slope over rough ground. She had to plot every step of that journey knowing full well that she was already in the realm of betrayal. She simply rationalized each step as something she deserved or needed.
Me: 62, BS -- Her: 61, FWS -- Dday: 11/15/03 -- Married 37 yrs -- Reconciled
Ghostie ( new member #86672) posted at 9:26 PM on Wednesday, October 15th, 2025
Not to steer the conversation further off topic, but, people’s situations are all different.
Lots of times a WS-to-be might work with someone or hang out in the same social circles as their AP-to-be. Often they are not seeking out someone with whom to have an affair. It’s not necessarily the case that they go on an app or dating site, or to the bar or club, and select a Phoebe Cates to chat up. Sometimes there are just attractive people that are ever-present in their day-to-day life. Or, they may not even start out physically attracted to the potential AP. Lots of people (mostly women) will tell you they don’t typically find anyone attractive until they know them well and/or develop an emotional connection with them.
And it’s easy enough to interact with someone often enough to develop that closeness to them without even meaning to. The WS-to-be might not feel unhappy in his or her marriage, nor be aware they have deep-seated issues that would allow them cross boundaries when presented with an unexpected opportunity or solicitation. It’s easy enough to believe it’s fine to continue interacting with this person who they’ve become close with if they’re "just friends" and they "would never do that" to their spouse… until they do, because some unforeseen thing was wrong with them.
There does come a point where one knows they’re crossing the line, and either does not care enough to stop, or rationalizes as to why it’s okay to proceed because now they are emotionally invested or mightily tempted by this person. Saying "no" is still definitely an option and it’s still their responsibility to do so, make no mistake, but it takes a lot more willpower to decline and distance themselves after this intimacy and attraction has developed than it does to do so beforehand…
That’s why it’s important to pay attention during the "beforehand."
And again, distancing oneself isn’t always as simple as shutting the door on Phoebe Cates should she randomly come a-knocking’. You may have to decline invitations from your friend group if this potential threat to your marriage is going to be there, or figure out a way to not work closely with them at your job—or if that’s not possible, to change jobs— if you’re too tempted to let the interactions be anything other than strictly professional. Maybe you have to fire your nanny and find an alternative person to provide childcare… Not saying difficulty with creating distance makes infidelity justified by any means; just pointing out potential reasons why someone might not immediately distance themselves. It’s not always a series of very intentional and calculated decisions leading up to the actual infidelity.
The book "Not Just Friends" explains the slippery slope affair very well.
WB1340 ( member #85086) posted at 2:44 AM on Thursday, October 16th, 2025
Referencing Ghostie, that's why I have always been against the idea of coworkers going out drinking after work without spouses/partners present. People get to know each other because they spend 8 hours a day working together. Throw in a social setting (bar), some alcohol, the conversations become more personal/flirtatious, boundaries get tested, people start justifying the flirting as "harmless", and next thing you know an affair happens :/ And then people say "I have no idea how it got this far."
Yes you do. You were there every step of the way and you loved it TILL you got caught.
I imposed a boundary of no going out with coworkers after work unless spouses are included. No communicating with male coworkers outside of work. No texting of male coworkers at any time (you can communicate via official work channels while at work)
Could she ignore some of these without my knowing? Absolutely. But she understands that if she does I am filing for divorce.
D-day April 4th 2024. WW was sexting with a married male coworker. Started R a week later, still ongoing...